tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post9028274092685318442..comments2024-02-25T08:15:34.559-05:00Comments on The Society of Torch, Pole and Rope: The Time of TroublesMichael Curtishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13217338828086458862noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-4528918837424908452009-06-25T15:56:04.796-04:002009-06-25T15:56:04.796-04:00Heh. Those Avatar modules were written by Ed BEFOR...Heh. Those Avatar modules were written by Ed BEFORE the novels each is supposedly linked to were written, and more than heavily revised by TSR's editors to match the novels. It's a credit to Ed's design skills that they are readable at all. Last year at ORIGINS I interviewed him about those modules, and he revealed that he wrote about three times as many encounters and mapped locations and details as got printed in the end, because the editors just kept asking for more and more and more - - and then chopping it all out to make room for, as you quite accurately describe them, the "railroad" plot scenes of the modules. For one thing, Ed completely mapped and detailed Tantras and its main temple, Castle Krag in Cormyr, and some smaller mini-dungeons, using the project as an excuse to detail and describe what he called "useful campaign building blocks" along the route the PCs are forced to take. All of that got edited out, and we got a "PCs are forced into this encounter, then that one" adventure.<br />NOT Greenwood's fault. He'd signed a contract to write the modules and did that; very little of the published modules are his work.<br />Nor has he had much of ANY control over the Realms over the years, except by helping TSR or WotC out of a time-jam by coming to the rescue of their designers at the last second. Or by the details he puts into a novel whose plot and main characters are dictated by the publisher. Sometimes they don't have TIME to ruin what he writes for them.<br />Myself, I'd like to see "unedited Ed" some day. I strongly suspect it it would be far more useful and fun for gaming than what we did get.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-41800921270153622122009-06-20T18:55:48.069-04:002009-06-20T18:55:48.069-04:00I count myself lucky to have never had the misfort...I count myself lucky to have never had the misfortune to play any of the the FRE or DL series. That said, the <i>Time of Troubles</i> had no impact at all on the <i>Forgotten Realms</i> adventures we ever played, nor did the various novels, even though I read far too many of them. I often think that it would be fun to run a <i>Horde</i> campaign...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-37444839169621181342009-06-19T23:18:13.114-04:002009-06-19T23:18:13.114-04:00Like Norman I am intrigued by Maztica. I also love...Like Norman I am intrigued by Maztica. I also love meso-american flavor and would love to have a setting somewhat maize flavoured.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-70175918231898538632009-06-19T23:16:34.121-04:002009-06-19T23:16:34.121-04:00Sigh
After reading this I decided to go and snag ...Sigh<br /><br />After reading this I decided to go and snag that copy of FR that sat in the discount bin at the local game store. Naturally, it had been sold after sitting there for months.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-84817707732042306312009-06-18T08:02:51.453-04:002009-06-18T08:02:51.453-04:00Yeah, I'm like Norman. Second edition from th...Yeah, I'm like Norman. Second edition from the get go struck me as a money grab. Just my opinion, of course, but I found the core books poorly written and laid out, I thought that the writing in the TSR novels was abominable, and I never actually cared for Ed Greenwood's writing, either. It was also during this time that TSR became T$R. They threatened law suits left and right. I can remember a collection of "netbooks" on the then purely text-based internet that were passed around secretly, which were really just a collection of fan-based homebrew. During this time I tried to get into some of the other rpgs, but nothing really grabbed my fancy until Earthdawn was released.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551480034601737297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-31279715922258090812009-06-17T21:04:17.643-04:002009-06-17T21:04:17.643-04:00The 2nd ed splat book-o-rama is what drove me from...The 2nd ed splat book-o-rama is what drove me from D&D and from the hobby really for many years. I never got into FR and 1/2 blamed it for being part of 2e era. <br /><br />Interesting to read it started off different.<br /><br />Maztica, is probably the only part of FR that might interest me. Although, I haven't looked at it in detail. I dig meso-american flavor and don't know too many products that have that.Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-80010727826498813832009-06-17T15:15:40.196-04:002009-06-17T15:15:40.196-04:00I never read Salvatore, and never felt too compell...I never read Salvatore, and never felt too compelled to include "official" things in our Realms campaign, but the deluge of "stuff" after the Time of Troubles was a turn off. As you said, it was not the same Realms anymore. I still do love the old gray box though. It was a good campaign setting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-80850067049651063442009-06-17T14:29:23.988-04:002009-06-17T14:29:23.988-04:00Isn't Maztica now the moon, or some other such...Isn't Maztica now the moon, or some other such insanity, in the latest cataclysm/relaunch?<br /><br />I wonder if there's an influence from comic book storytelling at work here too. The idea of a vast cataclysm changing the face of the world, but in such a way as to leave it just as open for further stories as before, is something that's very common in US superhero comics, starting around the mid-80's with DC's <i>Crisis on Infinite Earths</i>. It's not a type of storytelling I've seen elsewhere, except in rpg metaplot. Given that they're both "geeky" pursuits, I wonder if rpgs borrowed the concept?thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-78438552160324090662009-06-17T14:21:07.150-04:002009-06-17T14:21:07.150-04:00I agree that the brandification was inevitable. I ...<i> I agree that the brandification was inevitable. I mention that straight off. I still maintain that the damage might have been lessened and more easily ignored if not for the success of the fiction line and the coming of 2E. So much more the shame.<br /></i><br /><br />Oh yes, I understand. My point, and I suppose I failed to actually make it, is that 2nd edition gets a huge amount of flak for this, but in my view it is as much a victim as it is a perpetrator, perhaps even more so.<br /><br />The core 2e books (i.e., PHB, DMG, and MC/MM) are, in my mind, truly excellent. They retain most of the base mechanics of 1e to the point where they are almost interchangeable and made the rules more accessible to those of us on whom Gygaxian language sometimes grates.<br /><br />It wasn't until later on (not much later on, but still) that "brandification," or, as I think is more accurate, "the commodification of fun" took over that things went very far south. Maybe it's just the other side of the same coin, but when the focus turned into TSR/WOTC selling us more expansive materials so that we could more fully enjoy something we were already "fully" enjoying that many just walked away. "Here's a supplement that details region X, now you can pay us $25 (adjusted for inflation would come out closer to $45) for the priveledge of having fun in region X where you couldn't before!"Hamlethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135081554790749914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-63722725890856449092009-06-17T13:51:27.913-04:002009-06-17T13:51:27.913-04:00The Forgotten Realms flopped when it moved beyond ...The Forgotten Realms flopped when it moved beyond the writings of Ed Greenwood himself (I don't count the horrific FRE trilogy, as it appears Ed either didn't really write these or had to base them so closely off the events of the trilogy his hands were effectively tied)and into minutia like flora and fauna (Elminsters Ecologies); detailing every single tiny corner of the realms (The Great Glacier, anyone?), and releasing huge boxed sets with absolutely zero interest (Maztica). Unfortunately TSR got caught up in releasing very flawed products based on their popular setting as if praying for a hit among the debris ("Maybe Maztica will catch on and blow up huge!!!") <br /><br />Now, I have to say, a lot of the perceived problems with FR are what I love to call the "P*ssy DM Syndrome". That is, a DM whining that he can't run his campaign the way he wants because something written contradicts it, or his players tell him thats not the way it is in the books, or that he doesn't want to use this or that supplement but he HAS to...huh? That DM (and any DM over the age of 18 running the FRE series) should get his ass booted back to DM pre-school and maybe run a "Choose your own Adventure" book instead...sheesh. I agree with James that Ed catches a lot of flack for what was instead DM problems and not setting problems.Badmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199830751033032585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-75333673264364191262009-06-17T13:32:47.280-04:002009-06-17T13:32:47.280-04:00Tacoma: I didn't forget the Forgotten Realms ...Tacoma: I didn't forget the Forgotten Realms atlas, although I deeply wish that I could. The atlas, to me, was another unfortunate Forgotten Realms product that I could have done without. I can't even say that the cartography stuck me as being especially competent or inspirational. Your milage, of course, might vary.Michael Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13217338828086458862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-51805065129010130252009-06-17T13:28:03.544-04:002009-06-17T13:28:03.544-04:00Hamlet: I agree that the brandification was inevit...Hamlet: I agree that the brandification was inevitable. I mention that straight off. I still maintain that the damage might have been lessened and more easily ignored if not for the success of the fiction line and the coming of 2E. So much more the shame.<br /><br />As for experiencing the Avatar modules, I'm sorry to hear that but I'm certainly glad that my impression of them wasn't limited solely to myself.Michael Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13217338828086458862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-82983015979122215062009-06-17T13:25:58.416-04:002009-06-17T13:25:58.416-04:00Derek: I was never drawn into the GW minature war ...Derek: I was never drawn into the GW minature war games so I have no first-hand experience with how they changed over time, but what you write is certainly very similiar to changes that branding the Realms wrought.Michael Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13217338828086458862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-68557683602810135822009-06-17T13:24:00.714-04:002009-06-17T13:24:00.714-04:00James: If it hasn't been made apparent yet, I ...James: If it hasn't been made apparent yet, I too am a fan of the old school Realms. This series is primarily me looking back upon a place that brought me much enjoyment, but has changed since its orignal appearance in the public eye. There's a lot of mixed emotions here and I'm trying to reconcile them once and for all. Your comments also reminds me I need to touch upon Ed's Dragon articles before the series concludes.Michael Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13217338828086458862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-84897082490205442292009-06-17T12:36:55.407-04:002009-06-17T12:36:55.407-04:00Dont forget the forgotten realms atlas. I love tha...Dont forget the forgotten realms atlas. I love that book! We have two copies because one was getting torn apart from constant use. <br /><br />I hated how they changed the maps when they reprinted stuff for 3E, so that roads that used to go east/west now went diagonally - it was stupid. <br /><br />And I remember in the grey boxed set for FR how they had explanations for why there weren't any Cavaliers anymore ... it seemed all very quaint. They can tell us how to play our game? Right. To this day we use a hybrid 1E/2E (minus Dark Sun, Psionicist and Humanoid Handbooks, and Oriental Adventures) and our Forgotten Realms is the atlas plus imagination. <br /><br />We have one DM who insists on including an Elminster cameo in every campaign but at this point I think it's pretty much just a joke.Tacomanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-1245176553971437192009-06-17T11:58:58.147-04:002009-06-17T11:58:58.147-04:00Very awesome post. Yes, the launch of 2e's un...Very awesome post. Yes, the launch of 2e's unfortunate supplement glut really did a number on Forgotten Realms, though if we're being honest here, it was sort of inevitable with the brandification model set in place.<br /><br />Yes, I had the distinct displeasure of being subjected to the Time of Troubles modules. I remember listening to a lot of "riveting" boxed text and being told "you can't do that" very frequently.Hamlethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135081554790749914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-8701492897275874122009-06-17T10:32:26.162-04:002009-06-17T10:32:26.162-04:00Mike -
Thanks for another memory provoking post....Mike - <br /><br />Thanks for another memory provoking post. As I read through this one the first thought that crossed my mind was that it never occurred to me to blame Bob for what his trilogy started. The second thing was how strongly it seemed that what I think of as the Games Workshop model. Although my first memory of GW is the old White Dwarf magazine, my most solid memories are when I moved back into war gaming in college, playing War Hammer Fantasy Battle and War Hammer 40k (epic scale). I was quickly struck by how every month with the new White Dwarf magazine, there was a new "top" race to beat. With WD being "official" rules, it became harder to game with strangers w/out hauling not only minis and rule books, but several months of White Dwarf magazines as well. That seemed to be the model that struck TSR as well. If you didn't have the latest it was hard to be portable between campaigns - as the game was sold. Homebrew was still there, but with all the stuff flooding out, seemed to take a backseat for a while. That was part of what triggered my original exodus from gaming, it stopped being fun and became keeping up. A faulty perception, but it was what I saw at the time. White Wolf also was successful with this model, I think.Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06837009476119348823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4727301007280965202.post-86205509703001433012009-06-17T09:55:55.990-04:002009-06-17T09:55:55.990-04:00This is an awesome series of posts. As a devotee o...This is an awesome series of posts. As a devotee of the old school Realms, I know all too well what an amazing setting it is. Greenwood catches a lot of undeserved flak for things he had nothing to do with and many gamers have forgotten (or never knew about) the great stuff he wrote in the pages of <i>Dragon</i> many winters ago, which is a real pity.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com